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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2011 :  02:36:29  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message  引言回覆
quote:
Originally posted by sun

其實家屬(大姐)除感謝外,有表示看法。
http://tw.news.yahoo.com/康吉成家屬-山難救援應更專業-035111616.html
「更專業單位」?不懂



At least they could try to find a way to get the resupply canisters to the stranded person. Even the rescue team on foot ran out of food. So a resupply canister filled with food and water that can parachute down from a helicopter---when helo landing or hoisting down is not possible----would be another valid option to consider, like fit a base jumper's parachute pack to the canister and release it right on top of the stranded person or the rescue team that needs the supplies badly......
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2011 :  09:41:59  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message  引言回覆
Guys, remember to have 哨子 in your emergency bug out bag.....

http://showbiz.chinatimes.com/society/11050301/112011111300170.html

山難苦撐131小時 吊掛脫困 康吉成激動落淚

2011-11-13
中國時報
【梁貽婷、呂妍庭/綜合報導】

 一三一小時山難驚魂記終於結束!攀爬南湖大山不慎墜崖獲救的宏達電工程師康吉成,十二日上午七點廿一分由嘉義空軍直升機於中央尖溪谷吊掛成功,八點抵達嘉義水上機場,再由救護車後送高雄長庚醫院就醫。救難隊員透露,十一日下切到山腰之際,聽到康吉成在山坳吹哨子,大夥聽音辦位,終於找到他。

 九名陪同康滯留山區救難人員,昨日下午分三批從中央尖溪山屋搭乘海鷗直升機返回福壽山,直呼「累癱了」、「能回來真好」!其中李政信因不慎踩空、扭傷右腳,搭乘第一梯次直升機返回梨山後,隨即就醫。

 昨日清晨五點天還沒亮,梨山救難指揮所人員就起床觀察天氣,眼看山中露出曙光,六點十二分立即通知海鷗直升機協助。

 第一時間尋獲康的小隊長黃來昇表示,昨晚搜救隊員一夥九人陪同康吉成留滯山中,氣溫冷到無法睡覺,救難人員全身濕透,康的鞋子也是溼的,只好先煮熱食暖身,再升火取暖,好不容易撐到天亮,終於將康送出山區。

 由於山中救難人員糧食只剩一天,步行回登山口,還有兩天路程,因此,海鷗直升機將康平安送抵嘉義水上機場後,再次出勤空投物資給救難人員,此時救難隊已步行三小時抵達中央尖溪山屋休息。

 九名救難人員中有四人從五日就上山,已在山裡走了八天的路;黃來昇說,山區氣候不佳、山路難行,每一步都很困難,每名救難人員也都曾摔倒過。

 黃來昇說,十一日尋獲全身發抖的康吉成,在山坳吹哨子,立即泡咖啡即溶包給他暖身,康直呼「喝熱的真好」!

 康吉成吊掛上機後,顯得疲憊、虛弱,起初情緒激動,不停擦拭雙眼拭淚,且因傷口疼痛,全程面露痛苦與不適神情,隨機醫護人員除給予氧氣、點滴,也檢視他受傷的腰部和右小腿,適時為他打氣。

 八點十分直升機抵嘉義空軍基地,康吉成在救護人員攙扶下,走到救護車的擔架上,由台中市消防局救護車轉送高雄長庚醫院,全程雙眼緊閉、不發一語。
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pcgamer
路人甲乙丙

4685 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2011 :  10:02:27  會員資料 Send pcgamer a Private Message  引言回覆
『鐵打你號』裡的『螺絲』也是靠哨子活下來的........
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sun
路人甲乙丙

1197 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2011 :  10:07:07  會員資料 Send sun a Private Message  引言回覆
quote:
Originally posted by 慎.中野

quote:
Originally posted by 冗丙

PJ啦~



或是隔壁日本的航空自衛隊航空救難團之類。
http://www.mod.go.jp/asdf/arw/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29rQ0wMnGro

除了航空救難單位之外,我也同意山難應該有特設救難單位,而不是消防分隊什麼都管。

http://police.pref.toyama.jp/cms_sec_police/6231/kj00001280.html
日本富山縣警察的山岳警備隊。



欸∼這種問題嘛,個人以為問題的重點在:請政府在人員級單位編制上不要老是提「員額管制」。也請立委大人們在相關預算上高抬貴手,並做好監督。

Edited by - sun on 11/13/2011 10:09:00
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sun
路人甲乙丙

1197 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2011 :  14:35:14  會員資料 Send sun a Private Message  引言回覆
剛剛看到的一則新聞:登山隊頻放鴿子 整慘救難警消
http://news.chinatimes.com/society/11050301/112011111400138.html
看到其中一段文字報道:「救援人員感嘆,攀登中央山脈三千公尺以上的連峰,按慣例需有高山嚮導陪同,至少得三人同行;不僅是落單,甚至兩人都不符安全基本要求。」
感覺是:以往登山活動,一般都很重視,除要有經驗豐富的人領隊外,對高度較高一些的山,還會聘請高山嚮導,以策安全,但不保證一定安全。
現在交通方便,管制變少,隨便三五成群就組一隊,攀登高山,甚至不考慮自己或友人的體能狀況與領隊是否有足夠的應變能力,反正有狀況打手機自然有人會來救。
如果這種觀念不改,成立再多專業團隊,也無解。
PS:長住在山區原住民,瞭結大自然的無常,對於居住的高山多心存敬畏。而現在許多登山的人們,是否仍有此觀念?

Edited by - sun on 11/15/2011 01:12:56
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2011 :  15:11:51  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message  引言回覆
In US, for those skiers or snowboarders that want to ski/snowboard off the groomed trail area would required each person to have a GPS/Satellite emergency rescue beacon(also known as Personal Locator Beacon). This would cut down time to locate the stranded person. In Taiwan's case, with cell phone networks pretty much works pretty well all over the island, and new smartphone has GPS built-in, it might require those hikers to have X number of guides for those higher up mountains, registration of those hikers/climbers, routes and have a checkpoint for the park rangers to check the group's equipments and permits, reviewing routes and plans, hiking accident/rescue insurance, ect.... And if necessary, close the hiking routes if weather going to create problems, or having those hikers to sign a wavier that if they insisting on going to their hiking trip and ignore park ranger's advices, then the signed wavier would release the park and government from anything happens, and if those hikers end up needing rescue, they would need to foot the rescue cost themselves.....
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olddog
路人甲乙丙

Taiwan
1758 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2011 :  15:12:00  會員資料 Send olddog a Private Message  引言回覆
這麼優秀的登山隊,讓他們繳罰金/列入黑名單 相信大家應該都能接受.....
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2011 :  15:16:47  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message  引言回覆
What good is the blacklist when everyone in Taiwan keep changing their name every year for better luck????
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olddog
路人甲乙丙

Taiwan
1758 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2011 :  15:24:11  會員資料 Send olddog a Private Message  引言回覆
名字可以換....身份證字號要改可是要專案....是說怕入山証沒有建立這種電腦化黑名單系統而已,如果只是看一下證件登記寫一寫而已,自然到處都可以爬,在這邊亂搞出名不讓你爬,換個地方也可以,而據我所知,熱門路線會有名額限制,但是如果爬冷門路線可能就限不到....
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小毛
路人甲乙丙

Taiwan
3206 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2011 :  18:23:11  會員資料  Visit 小毛's Homepage Send 小毛 a Private Message  引言回覆
直昇機飛行每小時二十萬元,國軍與救難隊每出動一名一天不知多少錢(應加上保險費用)。若使用者付費原則可以落實,或是懲罰性條款罰費用的兩倍,依照台灣山難的頻繁的程度,說不定每年都可以再買一台黑鷹....XD 然後因為救難費用很高,準備不足任意脫隊的情況應該也能慢慢減少吧。

監察院不是要弄什麼大胃王比賽出問題不得健保給付,登山隊準備不足與任意脫隊造成需要救難要國家給付也不合理吧....XD




** 小毛的新幻想空間逐漸復活中.....**
http://lordmrx.pixnet.net/blog
歡迎參觀
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hwp2003
路人甲乙丙

Taiwan
960 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2011 :  20:45:52  會員資料 Send hwp2003 a Private Message  引言回覆
http://www.bcc.com.tw/news/newsview.asp?cde=1629542
空勤總隊救山難 今年已花了3000萬元以上

根據政府和民間救難團體估算,總共花費的社會成本超過二百三十萬元。另外,根據空勤總隊的統計資料,今天一到十月份,因為山難直升機出勤有七十八架次,總共出勤時數一百五十小時多,估計花費的金額高達三千萬元以上,這些都是納稅人的血汗錢。

宏達電工程師康吉成登山發生意外,因為家屬質疑消防救難單位,反而引起輿論的反彈,根據平面媒體估算,這次搶救康吉成,包括出動各式直昇機,就花了近二百萬元,加上官方和民間出動三百多人次,加上運補糧食,總共因為康吉成一個人,就讓社會付出二百三十萬元。
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  10:33:03  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message  引言回覆
Just require those hikers to ALL have accidental insurances......
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hawkeye
路人甲乙丙

4289 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  10:46:41  會員資料 Send hawkeye a Private Message  引言回覆
海鷗部隊是要搜救逃生飛行員為最優先任務ˋ其次是軍事戰訓任務支援ˋ用來做民間救難是本末倒置的!!
以前在樂山時除非路斷超過一個禮拜無法通車或是急救人員直昇機才會來ˋ像最後一位F-104跳機逃生的張復一飛行員就是在大壩尖山附近ˋS_70就以樂山為中繼站ˋ並請醫官待命支援˙
http://www.wretch.cc/blog/hsiung618/10548817
由於張教官跳傘後落在原始的棲蘭(司馬庫斯)山區中,在古木參天的情況下,直昇機雖然已經標定他的位置,卻無法立即實施吊掛救援。所以一直到三天後他才獲救脫險。
事後據張教官口述,他跳傘後一路向東飄,最後掛在一棵大樹上,他利用傘包裡的樹上逃生器爬下來,腳一觸地,不是實地,而是很厚的落葉層,足足有半尺深,這只証明了一件事,他落在一個人煙未至的原始森林,所以S-70C 直昇機無法立即將他救出來,但前前後後一共投擲了七個求生包給他,他將求生包一一撿放在他身邊,最後這些求生包起了非常大的作用!
夏天的山區很冷,三月份的深山那不用說,鐵定是冷斃了,據說救援隊的人員第一眼看到的張教官臉色是可怕的被凍壞的青紫色;又據說張教官有冬泳的習慣,所以才能在寒冷的山區中活下來。其實也聽過很早以前一位老教官,也是跳傘落在山區,他晚上不敢睡覺,怕太冷的情況下一睡不起,所以他唱了一個晚上的軍歌,一直熬到白天才敢休息。
--------------------------------------------------------------------
當年張教官並沒有像康先生這樣耗費大量的人力來搜救ˋ身上只有飛行衣和求生包而以ˋ飛行員的命不值老百姓嘛?



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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  11:00:01  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message  引言回覆
But those down pilots also have two way radio to give them direct communication link to the rescuers, where the stranded hikers don't have.....
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SK2
路人甲乙丙

2341 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  11:51:12  會員資料 Send SK2 a Private Message  引言回覆
quote:
Originally posted by Bryan C
They're supposed to get 15 of the 60 Blackhawk UH-60M. Problem is can they do the maintenance and fix the birds, have the money to build up the logistical support, and afford the fuel cost. Or are they going to let the ROC Army take care of everything.

Besides, those 60 Blackhawk doesn't come with any sort of SAR ability, like the hoisting rope/cable/basket, just regular Army general transport helicopters......

And, the most important issue is, UH-60 Blackhawk is onlly certified to be used by military, and not allowing civilian or police units to operate it. That's in the end user agreement/certification when agree upon for export license. Can Taiwan get around it and let US agree to it? Or it's just Taiwan's civilian government wishful thinking or propaganda to fool regular Taiwanese for the moment. But in reality will do nothing of the sort, and that in the end the UH-1H will have to soldering on for another 10-20 years in Taiwan and let the next administration to solve it......



Most, if not all, Blackhawks sold to other countries, are S-70 instead of H-60, in order to ease trouble of export.

As the contract is still behind of schedule, the DoD can still try to change some contract terms to let the government agencies, in this case the National Service Airborne Corps, to be able to use it. Same will do for the equipment also.

Or in a more practical way, to put it in Army use and have mixed crew of Army and NSAC staffs instead.

For the current generation of UH-60M, both Colombia and Mexican Federal Police forces got brand new mil-standard UH-60M for their operational use.

======================
Let us dare to read, think, speak and write
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hwp2003
路人甲乙丙

Taiwan
960 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2011 :  17:08:37  會員資料 Send hwp2003 a Private Message  引言回覆
http://www2.cna.com.tw/ShowNews/Detail.aspx?pNewsID=201111240207&pType1=PD&pType0=aALL&pTypeSel=&pPNo=1
海鷗添生力軍 美洲獅25日到
2011/11/24 16:35:18

(中央社記者陳培煌台北24日電)花費1.1億美元的3架「超級美洲獅」EC-225型救護機,明天上午將由空軍承商以AN-124型貨機運抵嘉義基地,完成組裝與測試後,預計101年7月1日加入空軍海鷗救護隊體系。

空軍司令部今天下午發布新聞稿指出,EC-225型機除可增強救護隊夜間及海陸山區搜救能力,支援運送物資、人員、裝載能量,主要任務為執行失事機、遇難船艦搜救、本島與外島傷患運送、災區空投補給、災民搶救、高山離島運補等,有助於提升國軍全天候、全地形搜索能力。

空軍司令部說,該型機裝備的載重量可增加至24名乘客,並提供多項、多套移動式擔架與吊掛裝備等系統;該機具有5個旋翼,與現有S-70C的4個旋翼相比,可減少機身在飛行時的震動,使飛行更穩、載重量更大。

此外,機上配有除冰系統、水上迫降浮筒、機載救生筏,並有衛星電話、健康監測與自動駕駛系統等。

空軍表示,去年8月16日派人至歐洲直升機公司( Eurocopter)監造3架EC-225;今年2月與6月地勤與空勤人員分別赴歐洲受訓,目前皆已受訓完畢。

關於直升機外裝的設計,業務承辦人員說,軍方原先提出幾套EC-225塗裝設計方案,但為後續方便採購,決定與現役S-70C直升機的塗裝一致,包括深藍、淺藍與白色相間,及青天白日國徽和紅十字標誌。

空軍救護隊現有17架S-70C直升機,服役20餘年,尚未到汰換時機。由於救護隊原本編制20架飛機,為編足額、增加搜救能量,空軍自歐洲新購3架可全天候搜救的EC-225直升機,為國軍首次採用歐製多功能救護直升機。

EC-225由歐洲直升機公司於1998年起開發,可用於海上支援及旅客運輸,長度約19.5公尺,最大起飛重量可達11.2公噸,可用載重量為5.7公噸,最大航程則為 857公里。

現有的S-70C直升機自民國75年使用至今,最高速度每小時290海里,最大航程550公里,最大起飛重量約為9公噸。1001124
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hwp2003
路人甲乙丙

Taiwan
960 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2011 :  17:18:08  會員資料 Send hwp2003 a Private Message  引言回覆
http://www.bcc.com.tw/news/newsview.asp?cde=1635838
空軍新購救護直升機 明天運抵嘉義
【2011/11/24 16:05 報導 】

  國防部今天表示,為強化空軍救護隊的救難能量,空軍在民國98年,透過商購管道,向法國「歐洲直升機公司」採購三架EC-225救護直升機,這三架直升機將以空運方式,在明天運到嘉義空軍基地,在完成組裝測試後,繼續執行國內訓練任務,預計明年七月擔負戰備任務,並配合國家搜救中心,執行各項搜救任務。
空軍救護隊目前使用美國「塞可斯基公司」製造的S-70C直升機,使用至今已超過20年時間,由於全天候搜救能量不足,空軍採購三架EC-225直升機,這也是國軍首度購買非美國製造的直升機。
國防部表示,這三架EC-225直升機,將由承包商用俄製「安托諾夫」AN-124巨型運輸機,以空運方式送到嘉義空軍基地交機,完成組裝測試後,將先在國內進行訓練,預計從明年七月起,擔負戰備任務,並配合國家搜救中心,執行各項搜救任務。(圖由國防部提供)
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Luke-Skywalker
我是老鳥

Taiwan
26419 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2011 :  18:21:08  會員資料  Visit Luke-Skywalker's Homepage Send Luke-Skywalker a Private Message  引言回覆
新直昇機到了

http://n.yam.com/cna/politics/201111/20111125555697.html
海鷗添生力軍 提升救援能力
中央社╱中央社 2011-11-25 16:53

(中央社記者黃國芳嘉義縣25日電)3架「超級美洲獅」EC-225型救護機,今天由空軍承商以AN-124型貨機運抵嘉義基地。空軍第四五五聯隊表示,明年7月加入救護行列後,將大幅提升救援、救護及救災能力。

=========================
May the Force be with you

President of IMFS(International Military Fans Society)



http://www.wretch.cc/blog/luke822
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pcgamer
路人甲乙丙

4685 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2011 :  11:09:37  會員資料 Send pcgamer a Private Message  引言回覆
關於這個案子的採購金額,又有一大堆鄉民跳出來用『總價除以總數』這套來質疑國家被國外廠商或是仲介商A錢了.......
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2011 :  12:13:56  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message  引言回覆
Well, the civilian EC-225 per helo is 14-16 million USD. Even add spare parts, training of 3 seed pilots and ground crew, can't be more than 60 million USD for all 3 EC-225. But the overall purchase price tag is 115 million USD. Unless the EC-225 is really military EC-725 helo(price tag of 20-25 million USD), and US dollar really suffered from foreign exchange rate to Euro dollar to 1 to 2 ratio, or there's some hidden weapon sales included in the overall price tag---which isn't likely due to EC-225 can't carry weapons, I fail to see how it could be so expensive......
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SK2
路人甲乙丙

2341 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2011 :  14:43:08  會員資料 Send SK2 a Private Message  引言回覆
quote:
Originally posted by Bryan C

Well, the civilian EC-225 per helo is 14-16 million USD. Even add spare parts, training of 3 seed pilots and ground crew, can't be more than 60 million USD for all 3 EC-225. But the overall purchase price tag is 115 million USD. Unless the EC-225 is really military EC-725 helo(price tag of 20-25 million USD), and US dollar really suffered from foreign exchange rate to Euro dollar to 1 to 2 ratio, or there's some hidden weapon sales included in the overall price tag---which isn't likely due to EC-225 can't carry weapons, I fail to see how it could be so expensive......



Dude, there are so many "optional extras" for Eurocopter products. The 14-16 million is just the price for the green airframe, you can add appropriate "extras" to convert it to the chopper you want, from executive chopper to SAR chopper...

Basically everything in the SAR package are optional, from "marine-going treatment" (for the airframe) to weather/search radar to rescue hoist to FLIR and even the air-conditioning system are optional, and the price for all those items add up are nearly double the original price of the airframe.

A "Far East City" bought similar product more than 10 years ago and the price is exactly double of the original green airframe......

======================
Let us dare to read, think, speak and write
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2011 :  15:34:00  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message  引言回覆
Even if the price tag is doubled after all the add on stuff, but at price tag of 28 to 32 mil per copy, that's still just 84 to 96 mil for 3 EC-225, and still not add up to 115 mil.

Just hope ROCAF didn't ordered a bunch of VIP layout EC-225 with inflight entertainment system and leather captain chairs, but keep saying that they can always restore the cabin layout to SAR mission within 24 to 72 hours of notice......

Edited by - Bryan C on 11/30/2011 15:43:50
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Captain Picard
我是老鳥

7523 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2011 :  15:57:18  會員資料 Send Captain Picard a Private Message  引言回覆
>The 14-16 million is just the price for the green airframe

green airframe是只有機體本身,沒有動力、內部裝備、航空電子嗎?還是完整的基本飛機?

=========================

天佑吾「王」!
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Bryan C
路人甲乙丙

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2011 :  16:02:36  會員資料  Visit Bryan C's Homepage Send Bryan C a Private Message  引言回覆
It's basic civilian configuration helicopter with basic seats, flyaway price tag. So I figure the souped up doubled price tag must have some sort of super expensive inflight entertainment system(s) and leather seating, plus a few real crystal chandeliers in the cabin......

Edited by - Bryan C on 11/30/2011 16:04:09
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pcgamer
路人甲乙丙

4685 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2011 :  16:15:24  會員資料 Send pcgamer a Private Message  引言回覆
先前的報導還有指出,由於該機種也獲中國採用,中國方面甚至還獲得授權生產其中一些零組件,空軍要確保全機未採用中國製造的零件,除了要廠商掛保證外,還派人前去監工云云。如果報導正確的話,那機上全都是採用全歐洲產製的零件,價格就應該很難壓低,只是跟採用了中國製造零件的耗費相比,不知道會差別多少。
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